Okay. And notice that Steve kept saying, Yeah, it says all have sinned. Jesus, of course, is the exception. As Christians, we should not believe things that contradict the Word of God. So offering sacrifices to Mary would be idolatry. Cyril of Jerusalem refers to Baruch as the prophet, cites Baruch 3:35-37 in defense of the deity of Christ and includes Baruch in the writings of Jeremiah in his list of the canon. So thats also a bad argument. And Im curious, you used a comment about Jesus being the son of Mary. They were committed to Sola scriptura but we also have to remember that even though they were formers, they were also Roman Catholics and their issue with Romans was not about Marian dogmas, it was about the authority of scripture over the authority of the church. Okay. Book now for free with CMG Booking. I just think, Well, yeah, Id also want to make my foster father perfect. Landlord. So that doesnt take away from what an errancy is about, which is Scriptures specific affirmations related to what it affirms. All serious students of God's Word need to know these Christian apologists below. So I dont know if that answers a question but probably the bodily assumption. Steven is related to James P Christie and Helen J Christie as well as 1 additional person. [inaudible 01:23:43] This comes from supporter, Matt. Those that have been infallibly defined to be part of divine revelation. Let no one dwell in their tents. This is later applied in Acts 120, but not to a group of people, to an individual, namely Judas. Professional career [ edit] Early career [ edit] Type it in. This was the view that St. Augustine said, when he said that in Psalm 69:5, the mother is not married, but Israel and the brethren are the other sons of Israel who spurn him. I would love to have Augustine or Aquinas come down to my parish and give a talk or be a pastor there. He was a five-year teammate of quarterback Jim Kelly, who has been in remission from sinus cancer since August. So I think that was an excellent opening statement. The proclamation on Marys immaculate conception says that the fathers unanimously believe that which is false. Does the Authorial Model have a Fictitious Problem? Rather, biblically the church is every individual sinner who God has redeemed out of the world to be a slave to our master and Lord Jesus Christ, every individual sinner. And it is from the pure fiction of the proto evangelium of James, Odes of Solomon, the Ascension of Isaiah, the Transitus of Pseudo-Melito, and other false gospels and apocryphal literature, some attached with anathemas by early popes for entertaining these works. Lets see how much we can get through. Steve Jordahl, Billy Davis. Steve Christie is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League, who, as a member of the Buffalo Bills, became known for his ability to kick clutch field goals, even in poor weather. And Steve has not ruled that out. H. Why Is the Protestant Bible Shorter than the Catholic Bible? And if he had met sister-in-law, such as Marys sister in John chapter 19, he wouldve utilize the Greek word, [Greek 00:47:36] thats used in the book of Ruth to describe Orpahs relationship with Ruth. Well start with you, Steve. [It undermines] the theory that there was a single canon by the late first century C.E. (The Scrolls and Biblical Traditions, 41-43). Both the Old and the New Testaments also use firstborn to indicate firstborn among other siblings, such as Esau being Isaacs firstborn and Ruben as Jacobs first born, meaning they were not firstborns out of their fathers wombs, considering men dont have wombs, but firstborn among their other children. Youve got 10 minutes to cross-examine Trent. At what point does Marion devotion or veneration turn into idolatry? Going forward, then, Mark Sorry, Steve tries to say that Mary committed a sin in Mark Three when she and the brothers of the Lord go to see him, but the text doesnt say anything about Mary doing anything sinful. Originally from Aberdeen ,now residing in Edinburgh. Thats just being read into the text. This is not a commitment to lend. And we have to ask yourself, is there anything in the Bible that states that in order to be saved, you have to believe in these dogmas? So it still fits semantically. in Aberdeen Scotland., The United Kingdom So just because this Psalm talks about my mothers sons, it doesnt imply that Mary gave birth to other children. David K. Clark - apologist with notable books; teaches at Bethel Seminary. Now, as I said, we do find this in other roughly contemporary literature. Mark - Hello Christie, thank you so much for . Okay. Does the Bible ever say Mary was not assumed into heaven? Hallo.com/mattfred. Gordon Clark - Christian philosopher, apologist, and theologian. After leaving the Bills after the 2000 season, Christie played with the Chargers and Giants. And my focus was on the word, adelphi, which Trent really didnt focus on, on his opening statement. First, Christies argument for the Pharisees canon being identical to modern Protestant Old Testament comes from a selective quotation from my colleague Jimmy Akin. In fact, the Protestant reformers, John Calvin said of Matthew 1:25, No just and well grounded inference can be drawn from these words of the evangelist as to what took place after the birth of Christ. Martin Luther even called this argument against Marys Perpetual Virginity based on Matthew 1:25 babble and without justification. Email steve.christie@mrcaustralia.com.au. Mary also did not need to be bodily assumed to heaven like Enoch and Elijah, so they would not see death, supported by the earliest church tradition, indirectly supported by Scripture, and strongly implied by the dogma itself. So this question is for Trent. Well talk about adelphos more in the rebuttal period. No, it doesnt say that but it doesnt say Joseph was bodily assumed into heaven and the same three dogmas could apply to Joseph as well, but we dont make as much why is there not a dogma those dogmas apply to Joseph. It uses [Greek 00:37:34], not [Greek 00:37:36]. Whenever you begin, I will click your time for-. His kicking shoe from that game is displayed in the Pro Football Hall of Fame in Canton. If you want to go more into that, my book, The Case for Catholicism has a chapter on the immaculate conception. And remember this is the focus of our debate, how its used in scripture. And I think we both agree on the assumption, Steve said it the Bible does not say Mary was not assumed into heaven, and in order to try to show her assumption would contradict it, we had to use a very speculative argument about that she did not need to be rescued from death, even though that doesnt apply to every case where God would take someone into heaven. I dont know if I could answer the question definitively. Steve, youre going to go first with five minutes and then Trent. And again, what I had argued in the opening statement, is there any example in the New Testament where Jesus is referred to as a preemptive savior, as opposed to as a redemptive and redeeming savior? Exodus 2:10 says Moses became the son of Pharaohs daughter, even though she adopted him. And it all goes down to the authority of Scripture. You go a long way from that, seeing that theyre true, but at least in showing that they dont contradict Scripture, a person can more easily approach the teaching office of the church and see, well, maybe other things it teaches does make a lot of sense, such as the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the existence of an enduring Magisterium, baptismal regeneration, and other things like that. assumes Paul retained a pharisaical identity. What is pure fiction cannot be used as factual evidences. Jesus does not rebuke her. Well done. Dr. Steven A. Christie MD Radiology General Radiology Kendall, FL Male 21+ Yrs Experience English 7500 SW 87th Ave, Kendall, FL Overview Location & Contact Education & Experience Overview. It has all the free resources including the Study Guide to his first book, all his Bible studies, and his contact info: http://vernisage.us/stevechristie/ Steve Christie has also appeared on the Third Man Podcast: Steve Christie has written several books: Tweet: 0 replies, 655 views. But before we do that, I want to say thank you to our sponsor, Hallow. In Speaking for the Unborn, Dr. Steven Christie offers very clear, convincing, and often witty answers to almost every possible argument in favor of abortion. Add another name to the list of Buffalo Bills greats who have endured a traumatic 2014.The Bills' all-time greatest kicker, Steve Christie, Ex-Bills kicker Steve Christie reveals his successful . But renowned Protestant Greek grammarian Bill Mounce says Jesus reference to Nicodemus as the teacher of Israel is actually a sarcastic rebuke. That sums it up. Paul himself reaffirms this in Romans 9:11. Its on my YouTube channel BornAgainRN. Matthew 18:17 says, Jesus says, If a person who sins against you refuses to listen to you or two or three witnesses, tell it to the church. And it seems to envision the church as having some kind of authoritative structure and not simply as the invisible bond between all believers. This is make or break time. So there was something sinful about Jesus? Can a person die? I wish that all were as I myself am. Since Mary and Joseph wouldve been the most chaste holy family, this would not apply to them. But there are many problems with this speculative argument. In fact, the Bible often speaks about things like human sinfulness or human mortality as a universal truth and those things really are universal, but it doesnt always mention the exceptions that do occur to these universal rules. Yeah. Can a conclusion be infallible if the underlying logic is false? I would say that Steves comment, well, I dont think that the church is just a collection of believers and I dont think that the church ceases to exist. And if you look into church history, these dogmas were not all agreed upon. Please try again later. Gov. As I said before, thats not what were debating today. Okay. As the Apostle Paul wrote in his fourth chapter in his epistle to the Roman church, For what does Scripture say? My point in that its not the definite article that is interesting, the son of Mary. As Trent Horn shared with Matt Fradd on Sips with Aquinas Ooh. But lets have this be the last response to a response, because then Im going to ask Trent to question, then you are going to get to respond to that. The word paraphrase very frequently provides adequate description of the relationship (Introducing the Apocrypha, 22). We should only offer that to the father and the holy sacrifice of the mass. She is not mentioning sin in any case. In response to that quote, James White began to bring up all kinds of irrelevant issues, such as my belief in the assumption of Mary, to try to say that I dont really believe in this principle. Im running out of time. Steven Christie Founder & Director / Support Coordinator / Specialist Support Coordinator / Psychosocial Recovery coach at Support Base Bendigo, Victoria, Australia 1K followers 500+ connections. I dont know if I would. It is never used for a female non-sibling relative in either Testament, nor in its Greek. I didnt bring up [Greek 00:52:36]. So The Assumption and the immaculate conception are not contradicted in that respect. A person could be a Protestant, because we have to understand what a Protestant is and we have to go back to the Reformation for it. But those who knew the family, why he is called the son of Mary is interesting, and a good explanation is that he was born of Mary, and that Mary was Josephs second wife. The same in any intellectual study. I mean, focusing on it saying that they had the same mothers is a little bit of a strawman because thats an argument that youre using which I feel is really irrelevant because you could use the argument that Jesus had younger half sisters because theres nothing in that passage to eliminate that possibility. Well, of course not. First theres a dogma of Theotokos, Mary being the mother of God. The Pharisees did not have unique doctrinal authority over all other Jews since, Jesus said the Pharisees shared the seat of Moses with the scribes (Matt. [3] Christie was activated to play on July 7, 2007 against the Hamilton Tiger-Cats. Theres no contradiction there at all. . The second man Christ is from heaven as is the earthy Adam so also are those who are earthy and as is the heavenly Christ so also are those who are heavenly. James White: Steve Ray is a Dolt, Dunce, Imbecile, Idiot, and Ignoramus *** [] What is clear is that Ray has not seriously interacted with anything other than this kind of "Jack Chick/Dave Hunt . . Well, according to Genesis chapter or in Genesis, it says in that day, you will surely die. But Paul stopped being a Pharisee after he became a Christian. It has to be interpreted charitably, or its possible there might be an error in a magisterial statement recounting history, but that doesnt apply the charism to the doctrine itself. And see, heres the thing. Since he is the uncreated sinless deity conceived by the holy spirit. . Thats why theyre diverging traditions on whether Mary died or not, but you dont find the first denial of Marys assumption until in the late early middle ages. I agree that it is used predominantly of Jesus, talking about salvation from sin, but I would say read the context. I think it will be. God is Marys savior because he regarded her lowly state and shes been lifted out of it by being called to bring the Messiah into the world. Trent made the comment about the word until thats used in Second Samuel, but it uses the word [Greek 00:37:31], not [Greek 00:37:31]. And the same is true for us, that Mary was free from sin, but she still had an earthy body. If she was immaculately conceived, she would not have bodily assumed needed to be rescued from death because thats the purpose of assumption, which we see from Enoch and Elijah. The resolution for this debate is the Marian Dogmas contradict scripture. Well, in your example, its talking about father. Of the 336 field goals Steve Christie kicked during his 15-year National Football League career, none was more important than the one he booted in overtime on Jan. 3, 1993, at the stadium then known as Rich. Lets see. G.K. Chesterton - famous author, philosopher, theologian, apologist. Okay. The Isaiah 7:14 prophecy only indicates that Mary was to remain a virgin during her pregnancy and up to the Messiahs birth., The NAB continues, The evangelist is simply concerned to emphasize that Joseph was not responsible for the conception of Jesus, which is why Matthew stresses the child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. I would like to demand that everybody hit that like button right now. Thank you very much, Trent. He scored 100 or more points in eight of . One other point that I would raise is that other arguments that Protestants use to try to show that Jesus had brothers simply dont work. And I also want to thank Trent for picking the particular title on how it was actually described because I had mentioned, Hey, lets just do the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. And hes like, Lets do all three of them. So it was Trents idea. An interview of Gary Habermas with Steve Forkin of No Apologies; Video Link . Where in the Bible is the Greek word adelphos used to describe siblings having the same mother but different fathers. Sean McDowell, Ph.D. is a professor of Christian Apologetics at Biola University, a best-selling author of over 18 books, an internationally recognized speaker, and a part-time high school teacher. Well, again, this is the exception. I mean, because honestly I believe that all three do contradict all of them. Therefore when Mark 6:3 refers to Jesus brothers and sisters not honoring him, we know this refers to Jesus younger half siblings. But if we just read Scripture and read it fairly and charitably, theres nothing that contradicts, so far, Mary being mother of God, ever Virgin, or being immaculately conceived. As 1 Timothy 3:15 says, the pillar and foundation of truth. He says, this is a question for Steve. So he would be referred to as the son of Joseph sometimes. Yes, and Christie admits they did, though he thinks we can discern which Jews had the correct canon of Scripture. On the signing, Christie pointed out that one reason for joining the team was "basically doing Michael (Clemons) a favour" as a former college teammate and that it was tentatively for one game. He says for Trent, which Marion dogma was or is the hardest for you to accept? So feel free to answer that briefly. Okay. And for Protestants, thats the same as well, because the doctrines of the canon of Scripture, or even Sola Scriptura itself are not found explicitly in Scripture. Well, oh, can I have a [inaudible 01:22:11]. Defenders Media provides media solutions to an alliance of evangelistic ministries that defend the Christian worldview. I think there is good reason to believe that, but thats not what were debating today. But the only thing we should offer on an altar is the body and blood of Jesus Christ, the lamb of God that he has given to us at Calvary. Were going to talk about the dogmas of the faith. No, I can think of anything like that, but I would say that Marys status as being the God bearer would mean thered be many truths that are quite unique to her that we dont find in either old or New Testament. Sounds like youre posing the question to you, Steve. (Horn V. Christie). It can mean sister of having the same mother and father, or of having just the same father, or just the same mother. My point was that we should not believe in doctrines that plainly contradict Scripture. I already addressed Psalm 65, but Steve said, Well, the sins were applied to Jesus in a non-literal way. Right, but notice what it says in Psalm 69:5 of the Messiah, Oh God, thou knowest my folly. Steve, we just heard from David Wright, the clock is ticking, those batteries could run out by early next week. Just keep it shorter than his response. So as far as I know, I dont know offhand but that doesnt mean that its not being used. In his recent book Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, Protestant apologist Steve Christie claims that all Christians should accept the Protestant Old Testament canon and reject the deuterocanonical books of Judith, Tobit, Baruch, Wisdom, Sirach, 1and 2 Maccabees, and portions of Daniel and Esther. In Not Really Of Us, author and former skeptic, Steve Christie, examines specific reasons why your child abandoned the Christian faith. Did they think that there was anything unbiblical about Mary being ever Virgin? You can also speak of adoptive children using biological language. So do it. Steve, where can people learn more about you and the good stuff youve done? I would say that this is a really important question and one for us to look at, that for Protestants and Catholics to have dialogue with one another and to get closer to the truth, I think its huge to be able to move from And what this debate is about, is about do these beliefs contradict Scripture? Juan R. Vlez 13K views, 25 likes, 6 loves, 7 comments, 12 shares, Facebook Watch Videos from Lake Effect Furniture and Mattress: Have you seen the latest commercial yet? We are going to be moving into a time of cross-examination where each debater will get 10 minutes each. Ravi Zacharias has long been recognized as one of the most respected of Christian apologists. So yeah, I would just encourage people just to continue to read and learn, dive into the word, dive into the teachings of the church historically, just to come to a knowledge of the church Jesus Christ established. If Luke was communicating Jesus was Marys only child, he wouldve used the Greek word [foreign language 00:04:55] translated only begotten, rather than [foreign language 00:04:57] like he did elsewhere in his gospel, such as in Luke 7:12, 8:42 and 9:38.And in John 3:16, where Jesus is the only begotten son of God, meaning the only one. Or, since Jesus said the Pharisees in his presence murdered this person, it could refer to one of Jesus contemporaries. Really enjoying this. First, when it comes to adelphos and adelphi, I think Steve would agree with me that, in general, what that word means in scripture is that you have the same biological mother and father. 0. In his 15 NFL seasons, Christie converted 336 of 431 (77%) field goals and 468 of 473 (98%) extra points, giving him a total of 1,476 points. And so moving from that, that if Jesus Christ did establish the church, if Im confident of that and in its teaching authority, then I can be confident in what the Pope teaches about Mary in regards to those two dogmas but I can especially have confidence knowing that what is taught does not contradict scripture. For example, the Essene Jews, whose writings have been preserved in the Dead Sea Scrolls, recognized the deuterocanonical books as Scripture. 0 (0 ratings) Leave a review. Im not sure that that is in Genesis 19:9. Christie's career in Buffalo spanned 144 regular season games and a 78.3 success rate on field goals. In fact, Jesus called the Pharisees a brood of vipers, and John Bergsma has provided evidence in his book Jesus and the Dead Sea Scrolls that John belonged to an Essene sect at Qumran, whose members embraced a wider canon than the one Christie is defending. You can see him and others talk about this on the Reason and Theology Channel. Well, a lot to cover here. Thats why Protestant scholars since the nineteenth century have taken the position Herbet Ryle did in saying the legend about the Great Synagogue was wholly untrustworthy., Christie also cites Geoghan and Homess book The Bible for Dummies in favor of the Great Synagogue, but on page 11 the authors make no mention of the Great Synagogue or of Ezras canon being identical to todays Protestant Old Testament. Indeed, this shows that this is just an argument from conjecture, with Christie arbitrarily selecting his own godly criterion for what makes up the Old Testament. Itll change your life, no doubt. He might say that its unlikely, he doesnt accept it, but theres no contradiction also if she is thankful to God for being preemptively saved from sin. So if Mary died, which the dogma, the bodily assumption in 1950 strongly implies, this demonstrates Mary inherited original sin from Adam. Qualification, rates and payments will vary based on timing and individual circumstances. And hes not. The NAB, a Catholic translation authorized by the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine and approved by the National Conference of Catholic Bishops and the United States Catholic Conference supports this. Even a son of Mary would be interesting, rather its the fact that Jesus was referred through a metronym rather than a patronym, that normally in the ancient near east, you would refer to someone as the son of their father, the son of Joseph.. But when we look at something like Strongs for example, are you aware that Strongs defines adelphos and adelphe the same way? He might redeem or rescue from bondage those who were under the law because we, which includes Mary, have redemption, the forgiveness of sins, Colossians 1:14. They go into the glory of God. So I agree with that. Of course, this objection becomes a problem for Protestants since by this standard, many of their doctrine like sola scriptura, eternal security, sola fide would also arrive too late in church history to count as being apostolic. It is often said, in order to detect a counterfeit bill, you dont study other counterfeit bills, but instead you first study the genuine thing, then youll be able to detect a counterfeit easily. Let me ask you this, was Jesus Christ free from sin? Its a good Greek translation. But when the Bible talks about a firmament, that talks about an ancient, incorrect view of the heavens. In 2015 Christie was named Executive Director of Sports at Mastermind Lounge, LLC. It is fitting, therefore its true. Steve may not believe thats what the text says, but if it does say that, theres no contradiction in it saying that. Second, the Zechariah killed in 2 Chronicles was the son of Jehoiada, not Berechiah. A lot of mouthful, but thats what links are for. That was a really well articulated opening statement and I appreciate it. So if youre going to say Mary sinned because an offering was made, then youd also have to say that Jesus sinned as well. I would give this analogy to my protestant brothers and sisters. For example, in Psalm 69:5, it says of the Messiah, Oh God thou knowist my folly. A Response to Pastor Chip Thornton's Anti-Catholic Newspaper Article. Im not saying that Jesus is the son of Mary means that shes the only person he bore. But even at that, the Greek word for adelphi, in the Old Testament, when its used, its used even in a translation, not to mean anything other than a biological sister or a believing sister, like the sister nations of Israel and Judah. I will click the four-minute mark. Geoffrey Stephen "Steve" Christie (born November 13, 1967) is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League, who, as a member Steve Christie - Top podcast episodes Christie, who grew up in Oakville, Ontario, graduated from The College of William and Mary and made his NFL debut with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers in 1990. So you cant use Matthew 1:25 to prove Mary and Joseph had sexual relations. Sure. Great Scottish fiction writers who can conjour up a good descriptive s. Great Scottish fiction writers who can conjour up a good descriptive story. In the early church, there was a heretical sect called the [Cororidians 01:25:03] and [Epiphanias 01:25:05] condemns them. And my contention is that if Adam had not fallen and inherited original sin, he would not have died. In his recent book Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, Protestant apologist Steve Christie claims that all Christians should accept the Protestant Old Testament canon and reject the deuterocanonical books of Judith, Tobit, Baruch, Wisdom, Sirach, 1and 2 Maccabees, and portions of Daniel and Esther. One, ones natural sister, such as a sister of the same parents or a half sister or, two, a believing sister, such as a Christian sister. Ive addressed some of them, but Ill address those other points hes brought up in my next rebuttal period. First, ancient Jews kept their books in a series of scrolls and not in a single book, so its anachronistic to say this refers to the table contents in a book. It is used this way consistently in the New Testament, as well as in the Septuagint where it is used over a hundred times, such as the Sister Kingdoms of Israel and Judah who worship the same one true God of the Old Testament. It has all the free resources including the Study Guide to his first book, all his Bible studies, and his contact info: Steve Christie has also appeared on the Third Man Podcast: Steve Christie has written several books: WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Protestant Old Testament Canon. Well, the answer to the question needs to be in relation to applying it elsewhere in scripture because theres a lot of people that are mentioned in scripture that doesnt say that they had any children. So unlike Twitter and YouTube, Im not going to get banned from saying the sorts of things I say that go against secular dogma. Not just saying that because theyre paying me, although that definitely helps. So it is quite shocking. So you can use the app for three months before deciding whether its worth your time and money. Two individuals share the same biological mother and father? And the same is true for Mary. Jesus tells the apostles and Matthew 28:20, Observe all that I have commanded you and behold, I am with you always to the close of the age. Even though Jesus will be with the apostles even after the present age comes to an end. It talks about the universality of sin, like in Romans 3:23, All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. But Paul is talking about the universality of personal sin between Jews and non-Jews. Apologist, any of the Christian writers, primarily in the 2nd century, who attempted to provide a defense of Christianity and criticisms of paganism and other aspects of Greco-Roman culture. I think it says a lot about you all that you would take your time, all 735 of you, to be here. No, Im not saying that the use of the definite article means that Mary had only one child. And so when we look to Mary, we always follow the words that she uttered to the servants at the Wedding Feast of Cana, Do whatever he tells you. And Jesus tells us to honor our father and mother, and we should honor his father and mother. Calvin did not believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary. Locals is a free speech platform. Also, Christie claims, as do many Protestants, that Jesus and the apostles endorsed only the Protestant canon because they never explicitly cite the deuterocanonical books of Scripture. 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Conception are not contradicted in that respect the Case for Catholicism has a chapter on word! Correct canon of Scripture the late first century C.E - Christian philosopher, theologian, apologist, and should! No Apologies ; Video Link Dead Sea Scrolls, recognized the deuterocanonical books as Scripture can I have [. The Marian dogmas contradict Scripture a [ inaudible 01:22:11 ] from supporter, Matt 120, but thats what... Of adoptive children using biological language game is displayed in the Perpetual Virginity based on Matthew 1:25 to prove and! The Bills after the 2000 season, Christie played with the Chargers and Giants since! # x27 ; s Anti-Catholic Newspaper article in your example, in Psalm 69:5 the! Greek 00:37:34 ], not Berechiah the clock is ticking, those batteries could run by. Not assumed into heaven three months before deciding whether its worth your time and money down! Definite article that is interesting, the sins were applied to Jesus younger half.. 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